Eugene Cho

only bible idiots will vote for obama

I like McCain.  He’s a hero in my book.  Like Obama, he has his blemishes.  I will vote this Fall and it will be for either McCain or Obama.  I have chosen not to engage in my stupid joke and vote for the shortest candidate…which would have been Kuchinich.  But it’s stuff like this that I read from supposed Christian leaders that want to speak for all “evangelicals” that I simply don’t get.  In fact, it angers me like crazy.

“The only evangelicals that he’s [Obama] going to win over are those who have never read the Bible,” said Burress, who was one of a handful of conservative leaders who met with McCain on June 26 in Cincinnati.

Even if that was taken out of context, seems incredibly arrogant and divisive.  It confirms – again – that the more pertinent question isn’t so much “Do you read your Bible?” but rather, “How do you read, interpret, and live out the Scriptures.”

Discuss. 

And remember, I’m 13 hours ahead of you so while you’re discussing, I’m sleeping in my sweat.  Be nice.  Here’s the full article from Christianity Today:

Evangelical Leaders to Support McCain
Ninety, not including Dobson, met in Denver last week. They will ask McCain to consider Huckabee as VP candidate.

More than 90 evangelical leaders met in Denver Tuesday, July 1, and decided to support Sen. John McCain as the presidential candidate who most shares their values.

Attendees agreed that they are concerned about issues like immigration and gun rights, but determined that opposing abortion and gay marriage are so central that they have no choice but to support McCain.

“He would advance those values in a much more significant way than Sen. Barack Obama who, in our view, would decimate those values,” said Mathew Staver, dean of Liberty University’s law school, who spearheaded the meeting.

Those in attendance also reached a consensus that they would send a letter to McCain, R-Ariz., encouraging him to consider former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee as his choice for vice president.

“It’s not a demand; it’s a request,” said Staver, who couldn’t say when McCain would be contacted about Huckabee, a former Southern Baptist pastor who resonated with some evangelical voters during the Republican primaries.

The meeting featured conservative Christians from various sectors of evangelicalism, including African-Americans, Hispanics and younger evangelicals. Tim and Beverly LaHaye, the couple known respectively for their roles in the Left Behind book series and Concerned Women for America, were there, as were Eagle Forum founder Phyllis Schlafly, former Christian Coalition president Don Hodel, and Phil Burress, president of Citizens for Community Values, an Ohio organization affiliated with Focus on the Family.

But one person who was not invited was one of the movement’s most prominent voices, Focus on the Family founder James Dobson, who recently blasted Obama’s politics and his theology, and has previously said he would not vote for McCain.

“I didn’t want this meeting to be centered on a personality,” said Staver, who added that Dobson was working on a book.

Burress said there was agreement to support McCain, but there were differing views about strategy. “There’s no question, everybody was on the same page that Obama was not an option,” he said.

Burress, whose Ohio group is preparing two million bulletin inserts for 10,000 churches about the two candidates’ stances, predicted Obama’s efforts to reach evangelicals will fall flat.

“The only evangelicals that he’s going to win over are those who have never read the Bible,” said Burress, who was one of a handful of conservative leaders who met with McCain on June 26 in Cincinnati.

McCain, who met with evangelists Billy and Franklin Graham on Sunday, has been urged by some evangelical leaders to increase his outreach to them. But the sentiment at the meeting was that evangelicals must speak up for him.

Staver said the gathering did not create a new organization but he expects there will be follow-up meetings and conference calls.

Staver said evangelicals are trying to unify after a “fractious primary season” during which no consensus candidate emerged as an evangelical favorite. He was also concerned by Obama’s recent meeting with Christian leaders and his plans to expand President Bush’s faith-based office.

“We will not allow our values to be hijacked by any political party, and we will not allow politics to divide us,” said Staver, founder of the Florida-based Liberty Counsel, a conservative law firm.

Filed under: politics, religion, , ,

83 Responses - Comments are closed.

  1. Daniel Azuma says:

    Good grief. People who believe that the most important issues facing the nation today are abortion and gay marriage (not to mention gun rights) are:

    (1) disconnected from reality, and

    (2) revealing a strongly Christ-against-culture (as Niebuhr might put it) worldview that I don’t think is defensible, either philosophically, theologically, or ethically.

    Perhaps those who support the Republican agenda on the economy can explain how their ideas constitute justice for the poor, which, unlike abortion and homosexuality, is a major theme throughout nearly the entire Bible.

  2. Steve K. says:

    Yeah, I got pretty steamed when I read this. Mr. Burress is completely out of touch. I think Obama might have a better understanding of Scripture than he does.

  3. Tyler says:

    you can add him to the list of people who don’t speak for me. i love it how more educated theologians love to think that their interpretation of the Bible is somehow better than most others. you said it…he is arrogant. and if he isn’t, then an apology should be coming because he knows full well that Christians will vote for Obama.

  4. Dan Hauge says:

    I did find the beginning of the article striking, where it says that all of these evangelicals “agreed that they are concerned about issues like immigration and gun rights,” with the implication that McCain is too ‘liberal’ on these issues.

    Well, I suppose I must be one of those evangelicals who has never read his Bible, because I do not remember the passages in which the right of individuals to bear weapons and the need to clamp down on poor people wanting to enter our country are held up as values important to Christ and his followers.

    There are plenty of other things I could say about the article as a whole, but they will most likely get covered well in these comments. I just think there needs to be a serious breaking-open of the idolatry and the myth that ‘Christian values’ are one and the same as preserving the wealth, power, and dominant culture of the U.S.A.

  5. Sue says:

    @Dan Hauge

    ” I just think there needs to be a serious breaking-open of the idolatry and the myth that ‘Christian values’ are one and the same as preserving the wealth, power, and dominant culture of the U.S.A.”

    I can’t agree more.

    I care about abortion and gay marriage. Especially the former. It is important enough that my conscience convicts me towards McCain. But I understand that there’s more. There needs to be more. But that quote is ridiculous. And I don’t know who he is but I think that quote is ridiclous enough that I would consider leaving his church.

  6. chad m says:

    how do i read the bible? i realized while living in Chicago that my presuppositions and lenses through which i saw the text were blurred by my growing up in an all white, upper middle class suburb in omaha, ne. privileged, separate from violence and poverty, my favorite texts as a kid were those that talked of getting anything i wanted through faith in Christ.

    the friendships i made with people from all walks of life in Chicago opened my eyes and made me recognize my presuppositions and lens of privilege. it’s coming to that point that was really hard and it sucked at first because a lot of myupbringing was challenged and needed to be renegotiated…

  7. chad m says:

    and that’s why reading the Bible in community is important! without the influence and life experiences of many people coming together to read the text, we stand in our own ignorance and exclude other voices…

  8. Jason Dye says:

    amen to all of the above posts.

    i’ve never been a huge Dobson fan, but i’m rather scared by the libelous, hurtful, and hateful (and, quite honestly, stupid) things that some of the people in his organization have been saying recently. another example is a blogger at one of FotF’s sites saying that “Christianity Today relishes pornography” because one of the reviewers gave a 3-star review to Sex and the City. (you can read about that controversy here.)

  9. I support John McCain because of his deep respect and admiration for John Hagee. Although considered controversial and anti-Semitic, Hagee preaches the true Gospel. Like how he said Hitler was a hunter sent by God to chase the Jews out of Europe. Who can argue with that?

  10. Aaron says:

    I think in a lot of ways many people live/read scripture as if Christianity is about themselves… making themselves happy, giving themselves hope and getting themselves into heaven. Ultimately, its not about US. It is about God… how great he is, his love, mercy, his creation… and how we respond to an amazing God.

    I think when a lot of people read the Bible they either stop or make excuses when it gets uncomfortable. In this sense, things like turning to the other cheek or passages on poverty get ignored because it requires us to sacrifice something… whether it is pride or money or time.

    I wrestle with this a lot because I grew up in a Christianity where I believe there is a tremendous disconnect. When I would talk about poverty I was told things like “well, you can not help everyone… there will always be poor people” or on peace they might say “so what is our country supposed to do, just ignore an attack” It just showed me how on issues that are hard we tend to look for the easy road, not the route most rooted in our relationship with God.

    So… on a small note of how I try to read scripture… when something bothers me I try to move towards it, not away. I ask myself things like why it bothers me, what it means for my life, why have I been unwilling to do it…. then reflect and pray and talk to others.

    On the election, to me this is a very difficult year to vote… to me I like the ideals of one candidate but not the practicality…. the other candidate I like bits and pieces of the practicality, and little bits of the ideals…. so that leaves me really confused.

  11. Kacie says:

    yeah, you’re all right. I grew up with a lot of respect for Dobson and have been really puzzled by his and FOTF’s libelous talk recently. Has it always been that way, and I just didn’t realize it because I grew up with it? Or are they getting more extreme?

    I’m getting used to being steamed with the things the Christians around me say about Obama. My co-workers are convinced he’s a Muslim or the anti-Christ or the end of all that is good in America. Why? No good reason, other then those given in email forwards (which are today’s version of political gossip magazines). I am an anomoly to them – a missionary kid who went to Bible college and works at a mission organization who supports Obama. I happen to read the Bible, study it, and care what it says. I know that doesn’t mean I’m right, but please don’t dismiss my (and those like me) viewpoints without at least addressing them. I respect what they believe, despite disagreeing.

    If McCain chooses Huckabee, he will win the vote of both sides of my extended family and most of my friends as well. My friends have been joining the facebook group, “This election sucks, write in Huckabee.” I finally wanted to show that SOMEONE who was a Christian was voting for Obama, and joined the “Christians for Obama” group. :) Gotta love facebook politics!

  12. I don’t care about your religion. What you do behind closed doors is none of my business. But the president can’t make his promises come to pass: only Congress can. I will only vote for those based on their voting record, because this is how they will pass or veto bills in the years to come.

  13. clevelandmom says:

    I really hate that the term evangelical has been turned into a political term with largely negative connotations. To be evangelical now equates with being closed-minded and judgemental rather than it’s original meaning, to share the “good news” or the “gospel”. As a Christian, I think I’d rather be one of those “evangelicals” who might consider voting for Obama, though I have read the Bible, than the “Evangelicals” that will try to shove a candidate down anyone’s throat. I guess the Christians in this country aren’t smart enough to make up their own minds regarding the best candidate?

    BTW, I just came across your blog, I was looking for somewhere to leave a comment to thank you for writing this, if I lived in Seattle I’d definitely check it out, I love the thoughtfulness behind what you write. God tells us to have faith, but it has to be our own faith, on our own terms, based on the Bible, and with much thought and reflection. Not what someone tells us to believe nor how to understand it, which is unfortunately what I feel the “Evangelicals” have a tendency to do. Thanks for being brave enough to share a true Christian’s struggles/thoughts/concerns and reflections on the Bible. You’ll probably have a better job reaching Athiests/Agnostics/anyone seeking the Lord than the “Evangelicals” will!!!

  14. yeah… i wrote a song about this nonsense.

    in some time will we find our slow sinking solved?
    we collide with our minds and it takes the weight of it all
    blanketing words with varieties of flawed icons
    seemingly moving with postures of proving we’re getting along

  15. Deneen says:

    I would hope that not only Christians, but all Americans, would take a step back from the hype surrounding both candidates and make a decision for themselves. The article that was referenced is a perfect example of why the world outside of the church is put off by Christianity. They see the church as a bunch of people who are blind followers rather than people who can look at a situation and deduce, logically, their own opinion.

    I do not know who will earn my vote this November. At this very moment, it’s a toss up. A Christian caucus is not going to sway my vote. It will take much prayer and thought.

    Thank you for bringing up this topic. My prayer is that the Church will seek God’s face rather than man’s opinion when making what will be a monumental decision in the life of the US.

  16. Marianne says:

    I do not consider Obama a Christian. He is a Black Liberation Theologist by training, which is black power oriented. This is not based on Christianity, but Islam. He favors illegal immigrants, and immoral legislative issues. He wants to disarm our military, how stupid, and is not committed to anti-terrorism and national security. I will vote McCain.

    marianne

    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/

  17. taddelay says:

    the thing i like about Obama the most is his inclination against war. But it’s not really against all war- just THIS war. Now, I understand that Obama will be less inclined to get entangled in wars than McCain, but I wish Obama was truly against war (though I doubt such a ‘pro-life’ candidate could ever win). But it would be a move of taking Jesus’ words more literally.

  18. ubuntucat says:

    I guess only conveniently selective literalists “read” the Bible.

  19. Ryan says:

    “We will not allow our values to be hijacked by any political party, and we will not allow politics to divide us,” said Staver, founder of the Florida-based Liberty Counsel, a conservative law firm.

    Did Staver say this with a straight face? He must be joking. Politically conservative evangelicals are about as non-partisan as the NRA. I wonder if he reads the new theme bible from Zondervan publishing: The John McCain for President NIV Study Bible with commentary by John Hagee. I think I saw it at Costco…

  20. southernvoice says:

    The point is – they have you bitching about CHRISTIANS. Its the jews who own the candidates and its the Jews and Israel they bow to.

    Both candidates have prostrated themselves before the dispicable AIPAC so don’t lose track of where the real power and money is.

    For about 200 years Christians controlled every Court House across this land and built the greatest nation on Earth. Now a small group of them are being put forward in the news everyday so that Christians can be scapegoated for what Jewish liberals and neocons are doing in both parties and our government.

    Its the jews stupid.

    The neocon Philospher Leo Strauss taught that Jews would have to discredit white anglo saxon protestant culture, heritage and religion if they were to remove the old ruling elites and take their places. Tell me that isn’t what has happened.

    Now the USA, the nation Christians built, has been made to be diverse and is now in decline. Of course we are securing for the jews a state of their own with our last gasp. Lets bomb iran because podunk Israel demands it. while the ignorant christians talk about guns abortions and gays, morons.

  21. southernvoice says:

    And fight over the Jews’ candidates.

  22. Samuel says:

    Through the inversion of Nietzsche.

    Nietzsche’s Christianity according to Dru Johnson in his blog, “Find Your Nietzsche” is gnostic social stoicism at best.

    21st century American Christianity might resemble Nietzsche’s with a flair of immature Epicurean, therapeutic utilitarianism.

  23. Sue Ann Edwards says:

    How is an attitude of judgment, rejection and condemnation any different then the attitudes of those judged? Based on what the judgments happen to be? And what difference does that make when it comes to keeping with attitudes that separate, when what we need are reasons to come together, in Unity, rather then in neurosis?

  24. jHong says:

    allz i know is, if huckabee gets into the white house in any way shape or form, i may be packing my bags and moving to canada.

    just kidding. kinda.

  25. eugenecho says:

    intersting comments.

    but let me just say i’m tired of people saying that osama isn’t a chrisitan. uh, i mean obama.

  26. DK says:

    @southernvoice: Wow. I’m speechless by that old rhetoric.

    Let me be the first one publicly to admit that I am a bible idiot. I confess that I am voting for Obama and thus, a Bible Idiot or Illiterate – whatever sounds dumb and dumber.

  27. jasdye says:

    @ southernvoice: ummmm….

    @ myself: “maybe if we ignore the race-baiting trolls they’ll go away, maybe if we ignore the race-baiting trolls they’ll go away, maybe if we ignore the race-baiting trolls they’ll go away, maybe if we ignore the race-baiting trolls they’ll go away, maybe if we ignore the race-baiting trolls they’ll go away, maybe if we ignore the race-baiting trolls they’ll go away, maybe…”

    @ Sue Ann Edwards: the way i see it, when Jesus said, ‘judge not, lest you be judged likewise,’ he was not saying, ‘don’t judge.’ he’s saying, ‘judge in the same way you would want to be judged.’ i’m sorry, but if somebody wants to question my love of God or my stand with God because i don’t see things the way they do, then they need to be kicked in the teeth!

    kidding. i mean, ‘corrected.’ possibly by a Holy Ghost kicking in the teeth!

  28. eugenecho says:

    @sue add edwards:

    did you just judge me?

  29. I do believe Burress has burned some fellow believers with that comment. But more serious is the level of arrogance he demonstrates by assuming he has the correct method of interpreting scripture and applying it in life…that is really sad.

    Even the question of who would Jesus vote for…I don’t know. But I think he would be out in the midst of society bringing reconciliation to people. It is a disappointment to see some Christian leaders treat politics has the means to accomplishing what Christ commissioned. Perhaps if they applied that energy in the same manner has Christ, this issue would not exist.

    Besides that, the term “evangelical” is just annoying. It makes me feel like an exhibit in a religious zoo or something.

  30. I can’t imagine why so many Christians pay any attention to Dobson, Schlafly or Burress, none of whom have meaningful theological training. Like most television evangelists, however, at least a couple of those three are at least as good at promoting himself as promoting the Lord.

    Too many Christians seem just want someone (some person, ironically) to tell them what to do, and in Dobson’s case, it seems many hope he can tell them how to raise their kids. Dobson’s background is in child development and he became famous primarily because of his books and “pro-family” organization. He became popular largely because he was more pro-discipline than most other family experts of the 1970s. He favors corporal punishment, when administered by parents who don’t want to do it but know they must for the greater good. Consider him the neocon of child development.

    This might be the perfect time for both candidates and their would-be supporters to ignore the Religious Right and stop giving it undue influence, especially after the recent Pew survey more than 35,000 Americans that shows most Americans to be both religious and fairly moderate in their religious views.

  31. Megan says:

    “’We will not allow our values to be hijacked by any political party, and we will not allow politics to divide us,’ said Staver, founder of the Florida-based Liberty Counsel, a conservative law firm.”

    I thought that their values were hijacked by the Republican party many years ago. Thus the Religious Right. Thus, this statement makes no sense to me.

  32. Bret says:

    You social gospelists, maybe you should ask yourself when you last were in the word….becasue I NEVER see any scripture in your posts.

    Eugene, are you really tired of people asking if Obama is a Christian? He places his religion up front, just like his race. It is open for questionning. I assume at justification, you had an internal and external change brought on by the Spirit. The process of sacntification lead you to repent (meaning a second thought leading to a change of heart and hopefully a change of action).

    What has Obama changed from as a result of justification and sanctification?

    Has he changed his mind on LIVE BIRTH ABORTION?

    WHile all your folks will say…but but but, thats just one little issue, I beg to differ. 4400 Babies are murdered daily…daily. Guess what, you and I pay for it via $300 million in tax dollars that go to Planned parenthood every year.

    Abortion is a direct attack on Gods Law and sanctity of life….of course we all fall short…do you really want to fall that short by yoking yourself to it???

    Gay unions…just one little issue, right, again, a direct afront to the scripture as well as Gods plan (in the form of family), to pass His Law down to future generations.

    Hardcore environmentalism?….attack upon God’s sovereignty and Word….do you actually beleive we will end this world via global warming prior to Gods Word being carried out?

    Obama’s views on scripture are weak at best, after spending twenty years listening to black liberation theology, which essentially at its core, as was written by its founder, dictates that we must kill God if He is not in suport of the movement.

    Obama beleives there are many ways to heaven, including works.

  33. iy. says:

    oh dear. there are so many people who believe this stuff, and trust it more than they trust their family members. a few weeks ago i was asked how i can consider myself a christian if i am a liberal. (i didn’t go into the fact that even “liberal” is kind of a dirty word to me.) i asked him back (kindly, with a smile, but in seriousness) how he could call himself a christian and be conservative. my point to him was that both of us managed to be certain of our beliefs and that we were political opposites, yet we were both very much ardent followers of jesus and had our political opinions founded in our readings of the bible and our christian communities. it was like anything he said, i could say the opposite and it would be true for me. we knew we weren’t going to change each other’s minds, but i think it’s important to get our views out there, in loving and good-humored ways. so we did that. literally hugged it out, as you like to say. but still — some of the views he was saying were just as hurtful as and even more scandalous than in the article you posted. so i had to speak out. i was a little worn out by the conversation. but it was ok. it just made me worried about all the other christians in the U.S. like him — and those whom they meet in their daily lives. or don’t meet. for that matter.

  34. Bret says:

    Before all of you go off on some simple tangent about me being judgemental…asking a question regarding ones faith is in no way a judgement. After all, how can we effectively witness to anyone, without knowing their stance on faith…dont you kinda need to know that before you testify to His grace?

    2 Timothy 4:1-4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

  35. iy. says:

    PS – when i saw the post title i almost started crying because i thought you were shedding your balanced views, going nuts with the heat in korea. pulling a britney, etc. and i just submitted my Quest membership form! whew.

  36. iy. says:

    bret — black liberation theology does not say that we should kill God if He does not agree with the movement. very much far from that. i’m not going to address your other statements because i think you are free to speak your mind. and i understand your reasoning, even though i don’t understand it. we both have arsenals of facts and bible verses, i’m sure. but please don’t insult a movement with a sweeping generalization and claim that it is the foundation of obama’s theological beliefs. most black liberation theologists probably would not claim obama is one of them … and obama shies away from them himself.

  37. Jason says:

    The evangelical conservative rhetoric only makes sense when you consider the fact that they believe Jesus was a Republican.

    And obviously, he HAD to be because the politics make so much sense!

  38. Bret says:

    Obama More Pro-Choice than NARAL

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1964967/posts

    Now,. go justify that…justify infanticide…justify $300 million a year to kill babies.

    Justify this statement:

    Last year, presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., made a promise to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund:

    “The first thing I’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act,” he said.

    The so-called Freedom of Choice Act could wipe away every state law limiting abortion, undoing decades of legal work, research and educational successes

    Grace covers all ..and then some….but that does not excuse ongoing sin and yoking yourself to it.

    Last year, presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., made a promise to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund:

    “The first thing I’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act,” he said.

    Last year, presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., made a promise to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund:

    “The first thing I’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act,” he said.

    The so-called Freedom of Choice Act could wipe away every state law limiting abortion, undoing decades of legal work, research and educational successes

    Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?
    2 Corinthians 6:14

    Justify, after twenty years how he doesnt understand how grace through faith is the ONLY way to God. Justify how he confuses the priestly and theocratic laws of Leviticus, laws that are no longer needed, becasue those laws were for theocracies or were meant to usher in THE Annointed One, with the NT’s new covenant.

  39. Bret says:

    iy.

    If God is not for us and against white people,” writes Cone, “then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community.”

    Guess who wrote that….James Cone, founder of BLT…..you can buy his books online through Obamas church of twenty years. Hmmmm.

  40. eugenecho says:

    that’s it.
    i’m rolling up my sleeves and quoting scripture next time.

  41. david says:

    bret, thanks for adding your voice to the conversation. i’d like to disagree on a few points.

    BLT: you can proof-text cone and assume black liberation theology is about “killing god,” but it’s a straw man no more persuasive than quoting levitical texts about shellfish, men with long hair, and tattoos (or say, martin luther and his anti-semitism). BLT, like the broader liberation theology movement via latin america, grows out of a very particular sociopolitical context, one that is difficult to understand from the outside. it is written, at least in part, to address the disparity in power systems that exist for those enduring oppression.

    the social oppression of blacks, well documented historically, has uniquely shaped their theology to view God as a liberator who brings justice to the poor and disenfranchised, something very familiar to those who read the prophets (isaiah, jeremiah, amos, to name a few). this view does not encapsulate the entirety of their theology; but rather shines a light on an important dynamic of how the oppressed view the breadth of salvation. soteriology, therefore, reaches beyond “personal salvation” and into the realm of righting unjust power systems.

    BLT, again like the liberation theology tradition on the whole, is not perfect (just as no theology is “perfect” since it is all contextual to a degree), but it is a gift to the church and a prophetic voice for change in the face of those who hold the privilege and power. for these reasons and more, it has been continually mischaracterized so that the power brokers would remain unchallenged, namely that the white, european, male version of theology would corner the market and push out dissenting views. this does not mean that the dominant WASP theology is inherently wrong- not at all- only that it comes from a place of privilege, as opposed to a place of oppression (like BLT). hence, both views must be taken into consideration.

    ABORTION: i think a lot of christians who care about the sanctity of life just want consistency- from womb to tomb, so to speak. so whereas abortion IS an important issue, it simply is not the ONLY pertinent issue in protecting life. you speak about the high number of abortions carried out everyday- i agree that these are tragic.

    but significant research has shown that making abortion illegal will not necessarily result in a dramatic reduction of abortions. globally, nations where abortion is illegal have comparable rates to those where it is legal (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html).

    basically, i am all in favor of reducing the number of abortions (around the world, not just in the US), but like “solving poverty,” it is a complex, multifaceted problem. we cannot assume that overturning roe v. wade (which really is about the role of government vis-a-vis our personal liberties, not the morality of abortion) will automatically fix “the abortion problem.” in fact, given our history, it may actually cause further complications by pushing abortion underground, making it a far more serious public health issue, as it is in many nations where abortion is currently illegal.

    abortion has many problems at the root- and should be attacked from every angle: sex education, available contraception, anti-poverty relief programs for at-risk populations, and so on. all of these, i believe, are far more effective places to begin than assuming that some top-down legislation will suddenly reverse the momentum of a thirty year trend.

    will putting mccain in office really reduce the number of abortions in america? i seriously doubt it. in fact, if you look at historical trends, you will not find any statistically signifcant difference in abortion rates that correlate with the views of the president in office. it’s because legislation alone cannot isolate or control the complexity of the issue, and there are mountains of data supporting how unpredictably the at-risk populations shift from state to state, even as local stipulations ebb and flow.

    what i’m suggesting is that rather than dig in for yet another polarized debate about which candidate will fix abortion, why not work on a bipartisan basis to attack the aforementioned problems by finding common ground in our shared desire to dramatically reduce (i’m not yet convinced it can be eliminated) abortions?

    LASTLY, on the grace/faith issue, i would hope that christians would realize this age-old debate is not without its nuances and gray areas as well. ever since james said that faith without works is dead, martin luther and his five solas was trying to get it ousted from the canon, but to no avail. i agree that salvation is by grace through faith alone, and yet i also know that the evidence of salvation by grace is a sanctified life that demonstrates the fruits of the spirit through actions.

    obama is not a theologian, nor does he have the time to parse this theological tension amidst the political talking points and sound bites being spun by the media. if you read his personal statements about his faith and his desire to engage it in public policy, i think he does a pretty decent job of reasonably hitting the middle without watering too much down. he is not running as the “best christian candidate,” and if he was, i probably would not vote for him since theocracy has really never worked out very well.

    thanks for reading.

  42. eugenecho says:

    bret & sue et al,

    i never understand the comments about “do not judge.” i know what luke 6:37 says:
    “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.”

    but if you read that and other verses in context, i believe we are given wisdom to “judge.” we are to judge but not to condemn. and when we judge, we are to judge using both the Scripture and the word Incarnate as our guide and not merely our human acumen and observations.

    so, i have no problems with the posts that are “judging.” Burress’ soundbyte sounded more like an offhand condemnation to me which is why it angered me. many of the comments here are thoughtful, intelligent, respectful, and have depth. thank you.

    as for the pro-life/pro-choice matter: i can’t speak for obama but i just think it’s faulty to assume if a person chooses to vote for Obama or a Democratic candidate, that person supports the killing of babies. It’s as faulty as thinking that if a person votes for a Republican candidate, that person doesn’t have a theology or passion for the poor and oppressed. Simply, there are many issues to consider and I don’t to be lumped or duped into thinking that I must vote one way.

    ok. i quoted scripture and am feeling pretty good about now.

  43. “I can’t imagine why so many Christians pay any attention to Dobson, Schlafly or Burress, none of whom have meaningful theological training. Like most television evangelists, however, at least a couple of those three are at least as good at promoting himself as promoting the Lord.”

    Hmmm, if we hadn’t had the “judge not” stage of argument already, I’d say the following:
    @James I can’t imagine why so many who pay attention to Dobson, et al, call themselves Christians!

    I find this talk of America as “the nations Christians built” very disturbing. The “tower of babel” kind of disturbing. Don’t know why exactly. Just the sense that actually America, Britain, all of those nations, they’re all trying to acheive the highest tower. Everyone in those countries are being told to help build this tower. And its not celebrating God; God is celebrated when the rich hand their wealth to the poor, not the other way round.

    I’m taking it most of the people who read this blog are protestants, right? Go think about what that word means! There was a time when Europe was the continent built by “Christians”, but you know what, it was a Christianity that believed in indulgences. So a bunch of people called “Protestants” came along and *protested*. Go protest! Seriously, Dobson is the new (middle-ages) Pope! Look at it that way, go read up on the protestant revolution and go do something pretty similar.

    And by the way, where on Earth is the counter-statement. Not to say
    “only bible idiots will listen to McCain”, but something more like “these people don’t speak for me”.

  44. Ms. Cynthia says:

    That wasn’t a Bible I was reading??? The one with the broken spine and pages and pages of highlighting? ; that I drug everywhere with me to summer church camp and college bible studies and stuck in my backpack with my favorite peace and justice literature? Hey. I want a refund on my confirmation.

    Which Bibles does Mr. Burress believe are the real BIBLES? Will the real Bible please stand up?

    Who exactly is this MR. Burress anyway?

    Obama high jacking Bushe’s faith based program? Think of it as the highest form of executive flattery. I thought Burress and friends were the ones who begged for this government office. Now it is in danger of being administrated by someone who actually might use it for its intended purpose.

    Heaven forgive you. You knew not what you where doing. My mother always said “Be careful what you pray for.”

    So don’t worry. I’m not going to ask God to put Mr. Obama in the White House. I wouldn’t want to hold Him accountable for that decision.

    Never mind. I’m just another bible beater in the pews. I really don’t understand how government works either.

    A UCC Evangelical

    PS.
    There’s another blog in that article somewhere CHo.

    IF the Faith based office could actually become functional what would you recommend that Obama do with it?

  45. jasdye says:

    ok, somebody clarify this for me:

    How are we supposed to be witnesses of God’s grace by condemning people and being ungracious? if we are the ones marginalizing people, then how can we claim to show them God’s grace and love?

    speaking of James, aren’t we supposed to “Care for the widows and orphans,” ie., the displaced and neglected of our time? we can’t love by hating. and if, as John says, “God is love,” and, “those who claim to love God – whom we cannot see – and yet hate their family members – who are visible, tangible people – are liars.” (paraphrase, but the original is in John 4:20. but the whole chapter is good.)

    furthermore, Jesus equated loving our neighbor as like unto loving God. and then, rather than spending time ostracizing the sinners of his day (prostitutes, corrupt tax collectors, adulterers, lepers, beggars), he engaged them, embraced them, healed them, welcomed them.

    THAT’S the legacy that i want to be a part of! and that’s something i see all the time in Christian community. but, unfortunately, i – and much of the world – see a condemnation not keeping with the Spirit of Jesus that is carried out by people and systems within the church. that’s hurtful, and there’s no way around it. that’s hurtful to the cause of Christ.

    wait, did i quote scripture, or just point to it? am i a liberal or a conservative now?

  46. Bret says:

    eugene

    I knew youd feel better if you laid some of His word down.

    You mention that voting for a Pro ABortion candidate doesnt mean you support abortion…..here’s the dinstinction between Obama and other past politicians. Obama actually voted DOWN and argued against banning Live Birth Abortion. When it went national, even Naral, Clinton and Kennedy couldnt support that.

    Obama is VERY proactive in promoting abortion, he’s not just defending it. You dont need to speak for him, he has done so via his voting record and public commitemnts.

    While I dont know if voting for McCain will bring less abortion, I do know that Obama wants to pass the Free Choice law as his first action as president, hence making abortions more readily available.

    I do know that we, you and I, support abortion via taxes. I do beleive that those taxes will increase based on Obama’s own words.

    jasdye: dont forget, that after and sometimes before Jesus embraced the sinner he rebuked the sin.

    David: thanks for the input. I am not indicating McCain will lower abortion rates, I am indicating via Obama’s past voting record and his own words that he will allow for the increase of more abortions. A key componenet we havent discussed is Supreme Court Justices that Obama would allow into their lifetime decisions. While their may be a correlation of abortions rate to who is in the White House (if thats the case, why are abortions going down while Bush is in there and were up during Clinton), that has little effect on abortion laws comparitive to rulings of the court.

    I will look more into BLT,however, it is IMPOSSIBLE to develop a straw man when you are driectly using the unedited words of your opponenet, unless that opponent has since changed their view. Logics and debate in college really sucked, but I needed something easy to take after walking out of Organic Chem.

  47. jasdye says:

    Bret says:

    …I do know that Obama wants to pass the Free Choice law as his first action as president

    as his first act as president? how will he do that? is this substantiated? i don’t mean to question everything you say or believe, Bret, but so far, the rumors flying out about Obama and his policies (and his wife) have been lies, ugly lies. and i strongly believe that Christians – the children of Truth – should have NOTHING to do with spreading lies.

    and, from what i do know, Obama does not support Live Birth Abortions. any child out of the womb is already protected by law and hypocrates oath, so Obama was not voting for LTA’s, he’s was voting against the extra language in that bill that would prematurely try to overturn RvW. that’s from his mouth, btw.

    as far as public comments, here’s what he had to say recently to Relevant Magazine.

  48. Tumi says:

    I was not going to post a comment on this very “interesting” topic seeing that I am not American and all.
    Yeah Eugene! I read your blog all the way from South Africa.

    Marianne and Bret have you bothered to read any material about Black Theology ? To suggest that it based on Islam is…… well ignorant.
    Black Power and Islam are not similar. Islam is a Middle Eastern Religion not African or American.
    There might be a number of black Muslims in the US but they do not stand for Black Power either.
    It always astounds me that Americans have such a wealth of information at their finger tips,some remain so IGNORANT.

    To lump BLT with Islam is to do what most white theologians have done over the last 40 years. Label it.
    They label it without actually reading or trying to understand it. And by the way James Cone is a Christian; yeah MORE liberal than you but NOT a Muslim.
    David thanks for a good synopsis.

    Only God knows which of the two candidates will win in November.

    Abortion and homosexuality did not stop under a president who is openly Christian. In fact a number of states got bolder about permitting civil unions for homosexuals period(not that they all succeed). And this was all under an overtly Christian president.

    Are you so afraid that God is maybe NOT in charge, and so you will vote for anyone who runs for the right(no pun intended) party.
    I love the US and the Christians who live there…I just wish that some of you would not be so uninformed.

  49. bret says:

    Tumi: cone actually comments how blt incorporates the thinking of Malcom X with mlk…his words, not mine…did I even mention Islam?

    Jasdys: yes, obamas own words to planned parenthood was his first act as president is to pass the free choice act…I’m on a b-berry so I can’t provide a link…but his quote is readily available.

    PS. Aren’t some of you doing the exact same thing that Burress is doing — presenting a Holier than Thou attitude? Do you see the viscous circle these types of posts create? Let’s give Buress the benefit of the doubt, he’s a brother (you give Obama the same benefit) and what does His word teach us to do with a brother who screws up: EDIFY.

    Are we edifying or tearing down? How does this help fight social injustices? How does this glorify His kingdom. Where does it fit in to the vision of a unified church? If a nonbeleiver jumps on this blog, what are showing them? Love of the brother, or a church divided?

    How about we replace these types of Christian bashing posts with something positive?
    Post some different charities that we all work with…my ministries: my family, abused kids (guardian ad litem) and two faith based addiction ministries for men.

    I’ve seen two of the kids I’ve advocated for come to Christ in the past two weeks…He is amazing.

    Your turn…

  50. Marianne says:

    Tumi

    You seem to be unaware that Rev Wright went to Africa to learn about Islam and Black Liberation theology to begin with. Most of Africa has a Muslim presence as well, including entire nations that are Islamic.

  51. marnyarnold says:

    I am reminded of a stage magician I saw in grade school who showed us how some of the tricks work. He said that when he pointed at one hand, it meant that whtever it was he was making disappear was already in the other hand. The trick to seeing through tricks is to look everywhere but where he pointed. It seems to me that there are some in political power who stay that way by pointing us to unimportant crap so that we won’t focus on what is important. The issues that the above report focussed on come into tht category.
    Who marries who should be the business of the couple involved.
    Gun control is objectionable only if you think you need an AK47 to kill deer.

    If we must make Christianity part of our voting decision process, then let’s look at what the bible says.
    It says, “Feed the hungry.” It does not say “unless you don’t approve of their lifestyles.”
    It says “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It does not say “but keep a 9mm handy against a threat which will probably not come,”
    It says “Thou shalt not kill.” It does not say “unless thy enemy is sitting on top of a big supply of oil.

    The important issues n this election, the hand that we should be looking at, are:
    1. The war.
    2. The economy
    3. Global warming and the environment
    4. The search for alternatives to fossil fuels.

  52. ClevelandMom says:

    If anyone would like to read the bills regarding abortion rights, that Obama voted only “present” on, but praise the Lord the bills passed anyhow, go to http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/02/obamas_voting_record_on_aborti_1.html

    Just use the links to actually read the bills that Obama has voted “present” on. I think the argument here on this post should be less about who here reads the Bible and how we interpret it, and should be more about Obama’s stance on issues and how he has voted. I will admit my ignorance in this regard until now, some of these bills are so disturbing to read that I can’t get through them without wanting to vomit and I am particularly disappointed that he would not vote “yes” on these bills. If there was some disagreement on wording or legaleze, I would like to know what this was.

    The Evangelical right would have won the support of more Christians by stating that some of us may be ignorant of how Obama has voted in the past than to attack whether or not we’ve read the Bible or how we interpret it. I’d be much more receptive to that insult…

    Anyhow, we should all at least read the bills and see how he voted, then pray for God’s wisdom regarding the best candidate. I’d like to see Christians find unity as well, which is why I am likewise disappointed with some statements by the Evangelical right. We are all fallible, but in what has become a very political and visible group, those representing Christians in the political spotlight need to be most careful.

    Luke 12:47-48
    “That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

  53. Tumi says:

    Brett: The fact that James Cone mentions Malcolm X does not mean that he is using Islamic ideas.. They are both black and were facing the same situations as oppressed black people in America.
    Just because Malcolm X was a Muslim does not mean everything he said promoted Islam. He was also concerned about the plight of African Americans.
    Let me give you an example. If you were to use Martin Luther King’s “I have a Dream” speech as part of your own speech or writing. Would that make you black? NOT necessarily.
    It could be that those were the words that best described freedom for you. So James Cone using a quotation or quotations from Malcolm X does not make him a Muslim or a sympathiser.

    Marianne: Black Liberation Theology is from the USA, it began with James Cone when he wrote his book Black Theology and Black Power in 1969. It is not an African concept. It came out of the frustration of black CHRISTIANS in America not understanding the way their white CHRISTIAN brothers and sisters were racist toward them.
    The only country to FULLY embrace BLT in Africa was South Africa because they faced the same racial oppression as African Americans. South Africa is the only country in Africa to have millions of “indigenous” Caucasian people who had race laws against other racial groups. BLT is a CHRISTIAN perspective not Islamic.
    Yes Rev Wright came here to Africa but it was not to learn BLT,he already had that, Im could have been as a tourist. “Aaah to see the “mother land”. And by the way writing a Masters Thesis on “Islam in 19th century Africa” does not mean one is a Muslim. One does not even have to travel to West Africa to write it.

    BLT might not be your cup of tea,that’s cool but don’t lump it with Islam.

    Much Love

  54. Kacie says:

    Here’s the thing. When you get down to it, a pro-life person will disagree with Obama’s pro-choice stance. It isn’t something we can wish away. I support Obama, because I agree with most of his other stances. I don’t think that legislation against abortion is going to make that much of a difference, so it is not my top priority when considering presidential candidates. I’d rather talk to the girls that want abortions.

    It is a problem, though, when people deny that Obama could be a Christian because of his pro-choice stance. Yeah, it’s tough for those of us who grew up evangelical and pro-life to understand how he came to that conclusion, but then again, he’s not coming from our background. I might disagree with his arguements, but he at least has arguements. A pro-life or pro-choice position is not a symbol of salvation or lack thereof. I think one thing that the evangelical world really struggles with is generalizing our lifestyle standards to be indicators of the presence of a relationship with God. YES we will be known by our fruit, but lets just admit that we’re all still flawed human beings, even if we are growing and being transformed. We may have some of our theology and actions wrong *gasp* and may not realize it till heaven.

    If we’re talking about the fruit of Obama’s life, yes, some of his positions on issues make me question whether or not he takes his faith seriously. On the flip side, I gotta say I love the relationship between him and his wife and their kids. And I love the work he did on the south side of Chicago. And I love the philosophy of life that underlies a lot of his other policies.

    So, I will respectfully disagree with Obama in his pro-choice position, but I do not think that we can use that to say that he is not a Christian, and is therefore a liar and a dangerous politician.

  55. GodKillzYou says:

    Separation of church and state. Are electing a pope or something? Who gives a shit about whether or not a president reads the Bible? Why not ask if he reads the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita?

    This argument is meaningless. The crusades are over. Why aren’t we asking how well our candidates understand something important, like science?

  56. bret says:

    Tumi:

    Again , I never even mentioned Islam, until you did. Again. I never said that Cone quoted Malcolm, I said in his (Cones) quotes , he states the blt is like Malcoms ideas mixed in with mlk’s ideas.

  57. j says:

    i think the facts are out there. i do not not think there is a reason to accuse and defend our position. it is each individual’s right to vote based on their own thoughts. It does not matter if presidential candiate has ties with christianity, muslim, mormonism, scientology…..does it really matter?? what i mean by questioning that is, each person has their own value based on their learning, cultural influence and their family. based on what is most important for you, just pick a candidate that is right for you. it does not matter if candidates president’s pastor went to africa for business, pleasure, political, nor religion. that is his choice. same way, you have choice. personally, who gives a damn what you believe….just pick one that is right for you and hope God helps the new president make the right decision for the nation and each individual under the flag.

  58. j says:

    “I pledge allegiance to our GOD, and to the humility, sanctity, depravity, compassion, love for which it stands, our nation under our God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

  59. Sue says:

    @Bret,

    Your self-righteousness is off the charts.

  60. Bret says:

    Peace be with you Sue.

  61. Kevin King says:

    I like your “shortest candidate” idea. I personally think this is better…
    Since the President continues to receive his “presidential pay” even when out of office, I suggest always voting for the oldest candidate… thus ultimately saving the tax-payers money.

  62. Tracy says:

    Black liberation theology is not what Obama believes in. He believes in the American Spirit and Dream theology. He loves the common American, he just loves people. He is not out of touch with the average concern of the world. How can any God-fearing person not “test” or understand his spirit and know it is true?

    McCain is known for his lack of control: he is very short tempered (bad temper) and mean spirited. And the main stream media protrays him in a good light vs Obama who the main stream media (CNN, MSNBC, FOX news etc) makes too commerical. The media makes McCain look mature and control yet his behavior suggests otherwise and Obama is made to look like the feeble (the typical stereotype of black or dark people in any given racist society). And to vote for McCain is voting for a person who can’t control his behaviors. He can’t even get the difference between the Sunni and the Shitte correct! *cough*

    When reading articles like this I am becoming more and more confident that those type of thinking “christians” worship one thing: the god of the Republicans.

  63. [...] culture, justice, theology unfortunately, thanks to some bloggers i “met” on eugene’s post here, i couldn’t help myself and i inadvertently got involved in a few of those long, drawn out [...]

  64. bipolar2 says:

    ** Junk-food faith for a fat-head nation **

    America the free? Nonsense. I am an atheist, an anti-supernaturalist to be precise. Therefore, I belong to the most despised minority in the US. Why according to GHW Bush, I’m not fit to be a citizen.

    Whatever happened to ‘freedom of conscience’ — my right not to be forced to submit to your otherworldly delusions and androcentric moral depravity. The US is still (barely) a secular state which has the misfortune of selective amnesia towards the political ideology of christo-fascism.

    Blather on about “theology.” The last thing I want to suffer is the so-called hope, faith, and charity of the xian majority. A perverse sub-culture saturated with the stinking piety of bible-believing xians — intolerance and hatred, ignorance and arrogance . . . millions of fat-heads served every day with junk-food religion. (And all religions are junk-food.)

    The US is an aberration among developed nations — in its affinity for religious self-delusion and in its failure to accept now elementary basic truths like evolution via natural selection.

    For America’s uneducated, ignorant, arrogant xians — I say your “hour has come round at last.” And you thought that Revelation couldn’t have a secular interpretation?

    America’s ship of state is a ship of fools. Necessity has already decreed the ’08 outcome: “those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make demented.”

    bipolar2
    ©2008

  65. I THOUGHT IN THIS DAY AND TIME THAT IGNORNCY WAS NOT AS RAMPART AS STUPIDY ,IN THE GOOD OLDE USA. ISLAM IS NOT A ARABIC OR ASIAN RELIGION. EVEN THOUGH JESUS CAME BEFORE MUHAMMAD JESUS IS A MUSLIM AS WAS MOSES & ABRAHAM. DO NOT GET YOU MINDLESSNESS IN A TIZZY. REASON WITH A FORMER SLAVES DESENDANT- ALL THE BROTHERS I MENTIONED ALL HAD ATLEASTR ONE THING IN COMMON, THEY ALL SUBMITED THEIR WILL TO DO THE WILL OF GOD. WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY DEFINE ‘S THESE TYPE OF PERSONS AS MUSLIMS

  66. jasdye says:

    oddly enough, i don’t find much comfort in the fact that we Christians do not have a monopoly on hateful speech…

    i need to pray more.

  67. andy says:

    wow. can’t believe i just read this whole thread. i’m off to go pour acid in my eyeballs. and definitely removing beauty and depravity from my RSS feed. these comments are something i’d expect from a 3 year old.

  68. Marianne says:

    Mr Lee X slave

    Jesus was NEVER a muslim…how stupid……if he were here today, he would abolish Islam.

  69. eugenecho says:

    @andy: it’s called the World Wide Web or the internet. with technology, i get hundreds of readers via wordpress, stumbleupon, search engines, etc. not everyone thinks like you. and thankfully, not everyone thinks like me. sorry to have lost another reader. peace to you.

  70. andy says:

    aw shucks eugene, i guess i’ll keep ya around, just need to resist the urge to click through to the comments. your commenters seem to be, what is a nice way to say it..dotty.

  71. eugenecho says:

    @andy: dude, do yourself a favor and subscribe to better, holier, more edifying blogs. this one sucks.

  72. jasdye says:

    @ Marianne:

    Reaching out to others is a warm and noble effort, and says much about one’s character and desires. I truly hope that more positive communication occurs in this world, bringing people together. It will help them discover that they are not really that different, after all.

    that’s some great advice. so, here’s my chance to follow it. i would like to know you’re so full of vitriol towards Islam and Muslims.

    it appears to me that you didn’t even read MR LEE X SLAVE’s full comment fully. he asked that we reason with him before we get our selves into a tizzy: Webster’s Dictionary defines a Muslim as a person who does the Will of God. Jesus did the will of God. of course if you don’t have a fundamental understanding of logic (the logic presented by MR LEE X SLAVE is a bit backwards; eg., websters does not define a Muslim as any and every person who does the will of God) then it may stand to reason that Jesus, by that definition, would have been a Muslim. it’s not sound, foolproof logic, but does that make the proponent of that logic “stupid”? i don’t think it merits that. other comments that you have made (say, about Obama being not a Christian but a Muslim-based Black Lib Theologian, say about Jesus obliterating Islam, say about Wright going to Africa to learn more about Islam because Africa is majority Islamic) also point to this less-than-flattering view you have of Islam, one that seems, rather than rooted in love, rooted in hatred and fear. and i don’t think that you’re a hateful nor fearful person, at least based on that quote you gave on your blog that i quoted above.

  73. ryan says:

    Geez, good thing Andy’s gone. I was afraid we’d have to all be nice to each other now to make him feel more comfortable. Andy, if you’re out there buddy, here’s a few alternatives for you:

    http://truthprincess.com/

    http://www.thomaskinkade.com

    http://www.agkidzone.com/carebears.action

  74. andy says:

    @ryan: my problem is not with people being mean, just idiotic. maybe its just a bunch of trolls but reading these comments made me more dumberer.

    p.s. thomas kinkade is my hero. i plan on retiring at The Gates at Old Hawthorne, in a nice sweet cottage where i can hang all my kingkade ‘originals’

  75. Marianne says:

    Jasdye

    I am not “so full of vitriol towards Islam and Muslims.” I regard Islam as a false religion. I can keep my opinion of the religion separate from how I view the people. People are just people.

    Webster’s dictionary definition of “Muslim” is flawed, and I do not know who would write such a definition. Why doesn’t it say a “follower of Mohammed?”

    Christians are described as “followers of Jesus.” A Jew is defined as “A person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties.” Neither is defined as doing the will of God.
    And why would the dictionary acknowledge that Muslims do the will of God, but NOT acknowledge that Christian, Jews, and other sincere religious people do the will of God as well?

    I was accurate in saying that Jesus would abolish Islam. The spirit of anti-Christ is defined by the denial of the divinity and lordship of Jesus. Islam, although it acknowledges Jesus as a weak but positive character and prophet, denies who Jesus said he was, the Son of God, and opposes the Word of God in its claims about Him. Islam is therefore a religion which is anti-Christ and would be abolished when Jesus returns.

    I personally hope that Muslims come to understand who Jesus really was, and accept Him as the Son of God, which is who He said He was.

    blessings
    marianne

  76. Marianne says:

    This was just sent to me. Children being punished for refusing to pray to Allah in British public schools. I hope you can open the file. This shows the lack of balance currently present in who gets rights and who doesn’t. There is too much leniency toward Islam, when it is not appropriate, and too much harshness toward other religions being expressed.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031784/Schoolboys-punished-detention-refusing-kneel-pray-Allah.html

  77. [...] Mature: Eugene Cho talks about “Only Bible Idiots Vote Obama“ [...]

  78. alliehope says:

    @marianne: You might say you don’t have any vitriol toward Muslims, but your postings on this blog don’t quite match what you say. I read that Daily Mail article, and the conclusion I gather from it was that this was one teacher who overstepped her boundaries. It’s not about who refuses to pray to whom; rather, it’s about a well-intentioned bad idea that went off-the-charts bad. This might be an overly simplistic reading, but that’s what I got from it.

    To coin an old cliche: some of my friends are Muslims. Would you then tell me that I can’t be friends with them, since you equate Islam with an “anti-Christ” religion? If you can answer yes to that question with a straight face, I will be appalled. I could no sooner turn my back on my Muslim friends than I could my atheist friends (who, incidentally, also deny the divinity of Christ).

    Having gotten that off my chest, I can say with all honesty that my vote goes to Obama. I’ve read his stands on issues I care about (health care, the environment, education, etc), and can, with a clear conscience, vote for him. I don’t believe I’m a “Bible idiot” then, since that’s a judgment call, and one that I see as completely irrelevant. We’re electing a President, people, not a Pastor-in-Chief (but I nominate Eugene Cho for that job ;). If we forget that, this could get a whole lot uglier than it’s gotten.

  79. Marianne says:

    alliehope

    Islam is anti-christ in nature. So yes, I oppose it as wrong. I do not have to be vitriolic to do this. If you really look at true, pure Islam, you will find the vitriol you describe. I also know people, who converted away from Isalm, and they say it is evil to the core, and do not believe anything the Muslims tell you. There are 2 classes of Muslims, those who are just cultural muslims (more secular, do not practive the faith) and those who are religious. The ones who actually follow the faith – religious – are dangerous, and they will kill you, if there is a chance. Of course, in a free society, they will be inhibited, but in their own countries, this persecution and murder of others goes on all the time.

    Obama and his pastor get their theology and racism from Islam. They are both anti-semitic as well. BLT is a combination of Islam and the gospel. James Cone himself, admits this. who modified the gospel, since it needed improvement, with the Malcom X Islamic black power movement, to make it more radical, and for money from the white man.

    Obama is a godless man., who will promote godless activity and legislation. He already has. So has his church. He has no idea what he is doing regarding foreign affairs, and terrorism will increase in this country if he is elected. The only good I see in him is that he has good use of what we called ” voice modulation” in speaking. By using a higher pitch voice, and prolonging some of his words, he has that distant, far away, idealistic presentation. This fools a lot of people, who are looking for non-reality rather than real life.

  80. Marianne says:

    alliehope

    maybe you should hear what it is like living – as a non-muslim- in a country that has been taken over by muslims.

    http://multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-092706a.wvx

  81. Jerry Falwell says:

    Marianne,

    Just a suggestion- I think you should give it up already. We get it, you despise Muslims but pretend to be polite because you’re a “Christian.” Fine, thanks for sharing.

    You think Obama is an evil pagan- alrighty then, you’re entitled to your opinion since this is America and some of us still think Elvis is alive. Congrats on being original.

    Aren’t there some FOX news blogs or Fundamentalist sites for you to patrol? Really, thanks for stopping by- it’s been interesting. Your slanderous insults have been quite revealing.

    By the way, even though I’m dead, I’m sticking by my conclusions- it’s those damn lesbians who caused 9/11.

    Love always,
    Jerry

  82. eugenecho says:

    when jerry falwell comes back to address my blog, i know it’s time to close down the comments on this thread.

    marianne: your comments about obama being godless are ridunkulousisimo.

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