It’s a question I get asked often because I live in Seattle…
- Does it really rain every day in Seattle?
- Is there really a Starbucks on every street corner?
Okay, those are also questions I get asked often but another is: “What do you think about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill?”
Well, I have respect for the ministry at Mars Hill Church and Mark. Mark is a great teacher. Sharp, brilliant, witty, and a top notch Cultural Exegete in my opinion. It’s too bad that he can say some pretty rude and crude things that diminish his teaching and cause pain to folks. I first met Mark about seven years ago and engaged in conversation about joining their staff and even preached at their church once. When I realized that there were some significant theological differences including our different convictions with women in ministry and leadership, we parted ways.
This was 2000. Mars Hill has since grown significantly and is now the largest church in the state of Washington with about 6000 attendees on Sunday. Mark has grown to become an international figure, a highly sought after speaker, a prominent author, and other things that people would love to have on their resume. This is probably one of the reasons why I often get the question when folks learn that I am from Seattle. Mars Hill and Mark have become Big Time and even ranked amongst the most influential churches by whoever conducts these weird church rankings.
Besides being influential, Mark is also controversial which is why you have bloggers chiming in often about their thoughts regarding the latest Driscoll controversy. While I don’t agree with him on stuff, I usually find myself somewhat defending him. In an earlier post, I shared:
My constructive criticism of Mark wouldn’t be about his theological views; he has the right to have them and those that attend MH have the right to root or leave; my criticisms surround his oratory methodology: he tries way too hard to be funny, caustic, and sensational. People that try too hard to be witty and funny end up saying things that cause damage. This leads to damage control and the inevitable thoughts of, “why are y’all persecuting me?”
…I have much respect for the larger eldership at Mars Hill; we can’t deny that much fruit has availed. In that, I ‘rejoice’ and I would hope that the larger body of Christ can attempt to share in that joy. Sadly, I know that there are some believers that are actually wanting – overtly or silently – for MH or Mark to fail and fall flat on their face. Please – let’s NOT go there. I hope that the MH elders help guard Mark so that Mars Hill Church remains Mars Hill Church and not Mar(k)’s Hill
Most of us don’t know the experience of being in his shoes. How can we comment on whether or not we would utilize videos in our ministries when we have absolutely no idea what it feels like to have a church grow from 500 to 6000 in about six years in an urban context like Seattle where land and property issues and availability is dramatically different from Texas?
I’m not necessarily giving him a Free Pass. I do have concerns as both Mark and Mars Hill continue to grow in prominence. While it may or may not be his intent, I think it’s unfortunate that Mark has become such a divisive figure – either you love him or you hate him. Camps and teams are formed around him and that’s not good for the witness of the body of Christ.
And when you become a divisive figure, people look forward to your downfall. In my opinion, this is the most tragic aspect. Overtly or secretly, people [including Christians] are hoping for his downfall. And when folks dislike you or feel that you’ve wronged them, they’re inevitably going to feel that way. When grace is extended, grace is given. When meanness or the perception of meanness is extended…
Mars Hill is in the news alot here in Seattle. They recently purchased another building/campus in the Belltown neighborhood of Seattle as they start another campus. And then last Sunday, there was news in the Seattle Times about controversy in their church surrounding dismissals of couple long time pastors. Because Mark and Mars Hill are so prominent and influential, most in Seattle [including other pastors] can’t help but be somewhat interested in their development. People are watching and this latest ”controversy” is worrisome. When you have a new blog entitled, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, supposedly started by a current MH member…that’s not good.
While Mars Hill isn’t a church I could personally join, I can rejoice in the ministry and “success” of my neighbors across the Ballard Bridge. But because they are so influential…their depth, grace, and integrity - in this current and future controversies will have repercussions beyond their church. People are watching.
Grace and peace to their community during this time…
Filed under: church, religion, mark driscoll, mars hill, seattle
Eugene, I respect you but disagree with you here. I think you’re giving him a Free Pass. His hurtful comments aren’t one time but regular incidents and should not be accepted.
As a MH attender and subscriber to your blog, let me just chime in and thank you for your blog and post.
There’s a reason why MH has grown. God has blessed the church and the leadership of Pastor Mark and the elders. This so called controversy is not a controversy as every organization experiences “issues” along the way.
“either you love him or you hate him.”
heh. being on the east coast… far, far, far away from him. I choose to ignore his comments. I hear things/read things on sermons/blogs on the web. but no use getting riled up. Sure, I wish the best for his ministry, but… honestly. I’ve found myself just avoiding conferences that he speaks at, and avoiding him. I get easily tired of his antics… and not being in seattle and seeing the work he does there, that’s what defines him…his antics.
Elizabeth,
I would say there are a couple interesting things that DO make this a controversy.
1. The firings were on the news. Do you know how odd that is? For a church firing to make the local tv news?
2. I know one of the pastors involved and, in my opinion, he was one of the best links toward developing maturity in the elders available there – maybe this is because of his age, or maybe its because of his experience, I don’t know. I have a certain respect for Mark, and the other elders that I know there, but they’ve still “got a lot of puppy in them” and it is worrisome when one of the people who is in a very good position to speak maturity into a group is cut off. I pray that another voice is able to rise that can take that place.
I have no wish for MH to go through controversy, and I hope this is another point of growth for the good of the Kingdom.
Hi,
I like reading your blog, eugene, although I haven’t spoken up before. As I follow this from Norway I guess there are lots of things I don’t fully grasp in things that is said in the different discussions around Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. For myself I truly have appreciated some of his teachings as I podcast them. But one thing I’ve been wondering about is: if I have got a correct impression on his view on gender roles – and it looks to me like he expresses them quite open as a pastor and speaker, and not just like a private personal opinion, that would be pretty controversial in my country. Is it that at your place as well? I haven’t seen to much fuzz about it as I’ve looked around some blogs.
Sorry. Now I read the other links in your post, and I guess I got answer to my question…
Eugene,
As a Mars Hill member I want to say thank you for your honest and fair comments regarding Mars Hill. I subscribe to your blog and enjoy hearing about what Jesus is doing in other churches in Seattle. Thank you for your support of our community, and I extend the same support for the community at Quest.
One thing is for sure: Mark is the most engaging preacher I’ve ever heard!
Jennifer,
Yes, I agree the news is odd! It mystifies me but this is where I agree with Eugene’s statements. People are eager to see “bad news” about Mars Hill and especially Mark.
I did not personally know the elders who were dismissed but at this point, I have to trust the larger group of elders that they made a prayerful decision. I will hold to that belief until I learn otherwise.
Elling:
I’m sure some of the other women can comment more thoroughly on your question but you can read this for starters:
http://rosemswetman.blogspot.com/2006/11/open-letter-to-mark-driscoll_14.html
I’m clearly missing something because thousands of attend Mars Hill but some of his statements are simply unacceptable!
Nathan – I agree! Mark knows how to hold a group’s attention. He is funny and has a great sense of timing. And he knows his audience.
Elizabeth – Hmmm….I dont know really that people are eager to see bad news baout Mars Hill. My sense is that many people have heard some really good things, and some really questionable things about MH and they are trying to make sense of it.
Thanks for visiting our blog.
Recently, I was involved with a church plant and we faced opposition in various forms. I do not claim to know even an iota of what things are truly like in seattle/mars hill/driscoll’s head and heart but I remember praising God for the “persecution” because I couldn’t help but feel a bit validated by it as my personal conscience was clear before Jesus.
And secondly, and much less (but not by much) seriously – are you a METS FAN?!?!
As a pastor and one whose own mother has been an ordained and employed minister for over 20 years I strongly disagree with their approach to women in leadership, but like you Eugene, must give respect to much of what they as a church are doing for people. Driscoll recently showed a video of Joel Osteen preaching in he church and then used the clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IuiUOapK1w) to communicate about why the Bible doesn’t speak of prosperity and other such things Osteen is known for. While I can’t stand for much of anything Osteen does, I was angered when I saw Driscoll’s appraoch on YouTube. He has no right to abuse another pastor’s work like that! My biggest question about MH is how they can be so successful in reaching young people with such a black and white message in this post-modern culture where thse kinds of approaches don’t seem to fly. It seems like such a paradox to me…I guess that’s why we call it the Lord’s church and not ours.
I can respect Mark/MH’s stance on women in head leadership positions. I disagree but I can respect. My pain comes from the fact that he cannot respect the other position and from the continual references of women as lesser than. But like others, I’m surprised at how people are drawn to him and the church. He’s certainly engaging but NOT that engaging.
Eh, too much about personalities and figureheads than Jesus Christ. Not interested. Next.
Well, it looks like more controversy with our evangelical superstars are making the blog rounds again. Although I agree with Elizabeth that this is just the normal pains and issues within a community growing exponentially in number. Controversy in my neck of the woods which won’t make the blog rounds (i.e., church splits, fist fights, even food fights) would make this look vanilla. If 29 remaining elders on Mars Hills’ board remain unified, then I have to believe that the firing of the 2 pastors was justified (however painful the process must have been). But then again, I’m just another gossiping blogger, what do I know.
I’m more interested in rexhamilton’s question about Driscoll’s paradoxical popularity amongst young people. I think his hard-nosed stance is welcoming in our post-modern culture precisely because it’s so black and white. When you swim in a sea of relativisms, especially within the church, Driscoll’s words come as a breath of fresh air.
Dennis, I think you’re probably right with this…it must be compelling to the many young people who have lived with divorce, lies, and overall life-uncertainties. It still makes no sense to me why so many are compelled to his approach…it just doesn’t seem very loving at times.
I think the most importatn thing Eugene points at is that there will be larger repercussions than just the MH community if things continue to go badly. For better or worse, Mark has been elevated to a remarkable level of visibility locally and nationally. I think it’s true that people are secretly (and openly) hoping for the demise of MH and Mark, which I think must make Jesus sad. But Mark has not gone out of his way to cultivate amiable relationships with his rivals, and is definitely culpable for his part in inspiring these ill-wishes. It seems to me that the public personas of both Mark and MH have grown to the point where they have a life and inertia of their own, and which are out of the control of their originators (that probably doesn’t make sense). But that’s the dangerous aspect for me – if we’re not careful our public personas, which are often exaggerated caricatures of reality, grow to the point where they start dictating what’s happening whether we like it or not. Per Ben, I think this can be a sign that things have become more about personalities and figureheads than Jesus. I do pray that grace and peace will prevail at MH.
asimptote: well, not really a mets fan but more a mets fan than a yankees fan. rooting for the woeful mariners here in seattle. i wish we could land santana.
rex: thanks for your thoughts. i’m trying to minimize my public criticism of mark here. again, i’m ok [meaning that i can respect] with his theology and opinions but do not agree with the spirit and manner in which he communicates some of them.
i did watch that joel osteen video and while i’m ok with what he shared, i was somewhat disturbed at the tone. it seemed like he was using him for his comedy routine.
it’s a balance and i wrestle with this but i’m not a fan of folks calling out other folks in public unless they’ve made an attempt to speak with one another. the public calling of rob bell amongst others as a heretic recently also didn’t sit well with me.
it’s weird because i really really want to like mark but the whole jesus as ultimate fighter who will kick your ass…it’s kinda getting old.
Well, I sucked at that video game so if Jesus was an ultimate fighter, he would definitely kick my ass. Then again, Joel Osteen probably would too. That’s sad.
I sure appreciate your words Eugene. I’m right there with you. Mark is a brother in Christ and praise God for the changed lives and work of the Kingdom that has come out of Mars Hill. I don’t agree with everything Mark does, like everything he says, or appreciate everything that is Mars Hill Seattle, but we’re all a mess in one way or another…images of beauty and depravity, right? Thanks for the balanced perspective brother.
A couple things really stand out reading these comments:
First, some of those who have shared their opinions about Mark’s preaching have obviously never listened to his preaching. He talks constantly about Jesus and makes it clear in every message that it’s all about Jesus. If you think Mars Hill is all about “figureheads,” I doubt you’ve listened to even one single message preached by Mark.
Second, Mark uses a ton of Scripture when talking about gender roles and women in eldership (some have mistakenly used the word “leadership,” but Mark himself says women should not be elders–not leaders). Interestingly, those who have disagreed with him refer to his views or his opinions. Yet the man himself doesn’t talk about his opinion–he talks about Scripture. And I’ve yet to see one of those who disagree with him pull out a single verse. Seems to me that they’re the ones tossing around mere opinions.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it’s frustrating to see another preacher so severely misrepresented.
e cho, interesting post. I hail from the Seattle area, but am living in Japan now. I encountered some difficulties with churches in the area that started out seeming like solid Bible-based communities, but eventually became popular and read their own press reports. May I ask where you attend, how you would describe the principles and community there, and how long you’ve been there? Eventually I will return to the area and am always interested in hearing about the churches. Hopefully, I will have an easy time finding a place to learn and worship when I return. Thanks.
Looks like I stumbled upon my answers by exploring your site. The next time I am visiting Seattle, I will have to stop by Quest Church. Thanks.
So what is Mark’s background and I mean background like deep in his upbringing? Curious.
Nathan,
Never mind. Let’s just leave it at that.
Nathan – good on you for calling out for the scriptures. I don’t think you sound harsh – I think you sound like someone defending another they repsect and feel are being misrepresented. Nothing wrong with that. It’s my opinion that when any pastor preaches (including myself) we’re hearing their interpretation of the passage they’re preaching on. It’s our job as the listeners to test what’s being said against what we believe the scriptures to be saying. Is what’s being taught consistent with what the rest of scripture says? How does the message line up against the larger story of the bible and God’s relationship / posture towards humanity. And maybe most importantly, does it reflect what we see of Jesus in scripture and our own lives – Jesus said, “if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” My disagreements with Mark relate to 1) His interpretation of about 5 verses in the New Testament and his larger description of gender roles; and, 2) His choseen method for delivery — he’s wicked smart, witty and as Eugene has said a number of times, very culturally savvy/relevant. He’s also very depracating towards women, homosexuals and men who don’t fit his narrow description of what a man is. Let’s face it, there are loads of men out there in church leadership who believe what Mark believes; and I’m sure it’s his success that garners him so much attention. But it is what it is. I could handle / respect his theological and cultural presuppositions better if he didn’t package them in such caustic manner. Jesus was tough, Jesus was harsh at times – but in my opinion he reserved those words for religious types who felt they knew better than everyone else what the right path to righteousness was. I’m sure I’ve broken some Blog rule on length and I didn’t get into scriptures – I’m happy to share my intrepretation sometime if you like. But you can go to a number of places and read about the egalitarian position on women in leadership – the Evangelical Covenant Church, the denomination Quest is a part of, has a document there.
Nathan,
Now, think carefully what I’m about to write here.
Mark quotes scriptures. He talks a lot about Jesus. It’s all about Jesus. For the glory of Jesus. He’s constantly talking about Jesus. He refers to Scriptures and tons of Scriptures to back up his talk about Jesus.
I agree.
Then, how comes he’s so unlike Jesus?
You get it, now?
nathan- thanks for sharing your thoughts. many rightfully want to defend mark and that’s understandable. i do agree that extremists on both sides at times pull him out of context, but i also think it would be unfair to merely dismiss the significant amount of criticism as ‘misrepresentative’ of his strong views on gender roles and the ‘unique’ manner in which he shares certain convictions (which beattieblog has already summarized above quite well).
so while i appreciate the intent behind your comments, let’s be clear about a couple of things: (1) just because mark talks a lot about jesus and scripture doesn’t mean he’s not doing so through the interpretive lens of his ‘opinions’ [perhaps hermeneutics would be a better term here] and (2) there is an enormous- some would say overwhelming- amount of strong biblical scholarship that significantly disagrees with mark, particularly on the pauline issues- many of which mark seems quite committed to without room for dissent or friendly disagreement [New Testament/Pauline scholar Gordon Fee comes to mind as the most prominent, but he's just the top of the heap].
i’ve listened to quite a few of mark’s sermons over the years and in the end- as gifted of a communicator and teacher as he is- i really think it’s not so much the views themselves that are disliked as much as the spirit behind what is said. i’ve met plenty of complementarians and even traditionalists over the years who were gracious and respectful of our differing views. mark has a UFC-style and he’s sticking to it and i understand why (jesus and the church have been ‘feminized’, dudes need to ‘man up’, etc)… but i do wonder about 5, 10, 20 years from now- how will the fruit of this strongly ‘genderized’ gospel come to bear in our larger city and culture? can we really motivate men to ‘man up’ (as they arguably should) by subjugating women and painting a one-dimensional jesus who eats raw meat, drinks dark beers, and tears wild animals apart with his bare hands? sure, these caricatures are slightly exaggerated and we all have a good laugh, but how will this play out for the thousands of young, impressionable christians who are formulating their theology in the home, school, and workplace?
regardless, i’ve gone on too long, but i hope constructive dialog can continue without simplistic/reductionist dismissals on either end. much peace to you and the MH family.
[...] Drama at Mars Hill (Beauty and Depravity) Well, I have respect for the ministry at Mars Hill Church and Mark. Mark is a great teacher. Sharp, [...]
david: well said!
Yes, David said it much better. Nathan, I hope you will comment.
[...] good dialogue – this time around Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill’s recent ‘drama’. Head over to EC’s blog if you’re [...]
Well I’m not in a position to comment on Mark Driscoll or his church since I’ve never heard him preach and I must say that nothing I’ve read here inspires me to do so.
But as for why people are attracted to the “black and white”, a manly man church…it reminds me of what I see in the country post 9/11. We (as a society) seem much more drawn toward authoritarian thinking. Find a big strong cowboy to follow and you’ll feel better. (Even if that “cowboy” is afraid of horses. But I digress.)
Life is complex and scary and people want to crash planes into our buildings. Someone tell me what to think and do, please! I’ll give up freedom for security…go ahead and ignore the Bill of Rights as long as you keep the “terrists” at bay. And if you want me to give up using my own mind and listening to what the Spirit is saying to me, that’s ok as long as you tell me just what to do and get me into Heaven besides. And if you tell me God himself installed you and your elders, well that really relieves me of my responsibility to think.
What’s interesting is that being willing to admit we don’t know everything and being willing to wrestle with ambiguity and complexity are viewed as “girly”. I am complimented. I love to kick around an idea with my kitten-heeled mules. (Ha, you men are going to have to google that one.)
Of course, most men love Driscoll.
Why wouldn’t they?
http://42.blogs.warnock.me.uk/2007/11/more-on-driscol.html
DH – I assume you are speaking tongue-in-cheek, but I would hope that strong Christian men would not decide to like someone just because they put men above women. If men are put in a position of servant leadership and assigned responsibility for women, that is another situation. Many liberal thinkers see no difference here, but properly caring for and nurturing those you have leadership over is a taxing (and rewarding) chore. If someone doesn’t trust Christ, then I could see how they might just want to be in a position of domination. I’m almost afraid to follow your link to see what is at the other end.
All I will say is that don’t let your good be evil spoken of…and pastors in general need to humble themselves daily or God will do it for them.
Mark is still young and young in the ministry…growth is very important for all Christians.
Eugene. Thanks for the post. While I tend to lean more towards driscoll in terms of my biblical hermeneutic, I do enjoy reading blogs from folks who have differing opinions. Yours is one of my favorites. I hope to visit Seattle one day and stop by Q Cafe.
God has impacted my life though Mark in a profound way. Before I started listening to Mark, my Christian life was pretty status quo (not Christian at all). I began reading my bible, studying scipture, and my life was completely transformed. I had never heard anyone talk about living missionally, serving the community around us, relational evangalism, or anything of the sort before Mark. While I don’t always agree with what Mark says, he is making a positive impact for the kingdom of God. I hope and pray for his safety and for the health and safety of his ministry. I hope all of you will do the same.
Eugene,
Thank you for being an example of loving others. Especially here on the blogosphere where generally people (and have already as seen above) take pot-shots at people they know little about. I attended Quest many times during my freshman year at SPU and always found it to be a church centered on the love of Christ. While I have been a Mars Hill Member for about three years now, I still very much admire Quest and your role inside the church. May God bless you in the years to come.
For Jesus,
Daniel
rob: thanks for stopping by. many have been positively impacted for the gospel through the ministry at MH. i do sincerely hope that it may continue in ways beyond what even the elders at MH can imagine.
It may get a little messy there. Seriously, I don’t wish any harm on their church community but through their growing pains, I do hope that they might grow in grace.
http://riseandfallofmarshill.blogspot.com/2007/12/letter-to-elders.html
“Mars Hill’s end does not seem to be Jesus, but rather a mega-church with fearful (of the Elders, not God) members. Your god is numbers and control. Your god is not Jesus. If this were the only problem, we would stay and fight for this church. However, the controlling elders are proud and arrogant bullies who keep their sin in the dark and are no longer trustworthy. I can no longer submit myself or my family to such ungodliness.”
Thanks for the thoughtful responses to a comment I made here about three weeks ago. I forgot to check back on this thread. Sorry about that! Much (but not all) of what has been said here has been shared in a Christlike spirit of sincere grace, but disagreement. I can see where many of you who disagree with Pastor Mark are coming from.
I guess the bottom line here from my perspective is that it’s okay to disagree with another pastor, whether it’s content or style or whatever, but let’s not try to cast a guy out of the Kingdom of God and write him off as a heretic simply because his views about women differ from ours. Make sense?
Just for the record–I didn’t mention this before–I’m a Mennonite pastor. So there are several things about Mark’s style and even content that I don’t agree with and would not try to emulate. But his heart for Christ is clear and he’s very effective in his unique context. And that’s awesome.
Eugene, just curious as to which theological views you differ with mark driscoll on?