warning: please read the post before you view the video. you may hate me for wasting nine minutes of your time. as most know, i’m always weary of certain adjectives when it comes to labeling quest or myself. i like ‘multiethnic’, ‘urban’, and ‘missional’ but honestly, i’d rather quest just be called ‘a church,’ One of our hopes is to redeem that word in our culture. ‘our vision is to BE the church.’ but since our minds work in such ways that we need ‘categorization,’ it’s true that there’s much that we resonate with the larger movement of the ‘emerging church.‘ i have my frustrations – like how women, asians, african-americans, and minorities seem to be on the outside looking in – again. but, there’s much that i resonate with. in fact, six years ago when i was on the verge to plant Quest, i was so full of doubt and reticence. i thought i was crazy for thinking the way that i was thinking. why was i asking questions when i should be seeking answers? why do i both love and hate the institutional church so much? and the questions went on and on? so, it was so liberating when i discovered (via something called the internet) that there were actually other “stupid and foolish” people around the world whose worldview were beating to a different rhythm.
the video above is an extreme example of the fear, misunderstanding, and distrust that folks have about this so-called controversial emerging church movement. this is so 2003. c’mon?! this guy’s message might be one the worst examples of ‘ageism’ i have seen or heard in a long, long time. i need to make sure that folks at interbay church don’t get a hold of this video before the final merger vote. they might finally find out that we are young, stupid, restless, “fleshly and out of control.”
couple months ago, when i was speaking at north park seminary, i had the opportunity to speak at a forum on ‘the emerging church.’ it was a packed room. thought it would be fun (and it was fun) but out of the gate, the first question alluded to the arrogance of the emergent church, its lack of substance…i think the guy said, “you guys seem to think you’re better than us. i think you’re just a fad.” it was something like that. the other speaker, ray aldred and i just stared at each other.
i tried to rip into him 
– respectfully, politely, and pastorally. in the six years i’ve been chatting and walking along other ‘emerging’ or better, ‘post-emerging’ folks, i have never heard anyone say ‘we’re better.’ now, that’s just me. others may have had different experiences. if anything, folks within the larger emerging church umbrella understand that we don’t exist in isolation outside the larger historical narrative of the CHURCH. folks, once and for all: we are part of the Church. We are part of the same narrative story of Yahweh and Yeshua.
there are certainly legitimate criticisms of the emerging church but let’s make it very clear, it IS NOT a fad. It is a movement and thus, a part of that same narrative story; it is influenced by a ‘worldview’ that, regardless what we say or not, believe or not, will have its say on the larger cultural and global landscape, before it morphs to another shift. the emerging church doesn’t reject all things old or traditional but rather seeks to learn and flow from the traditional. rather than capturing what i call a ‘snapshot’ of culture and seeking to birth and sustain ‘the institution of the church’ from that snapshot, we live in a world (and always have) that move, collide, dance, and shift in ways that are often hard to define. it’s for that reason that postmodernity’ is hard to define or captured but better addressed or described in conversation and demonstrated in action.
whatever. i need to stop before i waste more time. i need to post about global day of prayer for burma rather than this. i’m tired. i’m stupid.
hope the video gives you either some good laughter or better yet, affirmation that things in the larger Church have to change or we’re in trouble.
Filed under: christianity, church, culture, emerging church, quest church
I only made it halfway through the video. I had to stop when he got to the bit about “beat” music being responsible for the sexual revolution of the 60′s. Prior to that,I didn’t know whether to laugh or to throw up.
You know, he’s right to say that the younger need the wisdom and experience of the elder but calling us (if I can still count myself in the “younger” camp) “stupid” isn’t exactly the best way to build bridges.
The young need the elders, emergents need traditionalists, we all need one another.
If the world he created is any indication (and Romans 1:20 tells us it is), it’s clear that God loves variety and diversity rather than uniformity and conformity. That’s not to say that you can believe just any old thing, but I think the freedoms God allows are far more generous than people like the person in this video make them out to be.
Thanks for a good laugh…and an upset stomach.
ray aldred is really cool. he gave a talk at urbana 03 that whooped everyone’s butt.
rhythm is of the devil.
Instead of worrying about beats, why isn’t the focus on being compassionate and kind?
i suppose i should stop being amazed that people would take the time to sit in front of a camera and rant like this, but wow… watching this video reminds me that the way we deliver a message is as important as the actual content of that message.
the way he tries to couch his malicious attacks and blatant slander in churchy language sounds like those obnoxious stickers that say, “jesus loves you, but everyone else thinks you’re a (jerk)”… although, given the text of the closing credits, i guess even jesus doesn’t love those stupid emergents.
honestly, i wonder what might have happened in his life that made him such a crank.
wow…this so inspires me to be less fleshy.
i could be like him! what am i waiting for? oh yeah, i’m still young and stupid or was it young and ridiculous? i guess i’ll have to wait until i’m older
Man, I wish my pc here at the office had speakers. Oh well. In any case, thanks for this awesome post, Eugene. I agree. We ALL need each other. It’s like the Vineyard/Calvary Chapel movement of years ago prior to my birth. Just another chapter in the story of the church, taking it in new directions and tirelessly following the movements of the Trinity.
I can’t even finish watching the video because I’m so overwhelmed by a near perfect example of the SJ personality type (Myers-Briggs Theory).
This guy is a clear SJ http://keirsey.com/personality/sj.html , probably an ESTJ, check this out from the same link: “Like all the Guardians [SJs], Supervisors [ESTJs] worry a good deal about society falling apart, morality decaying, standards being undermined, traditions being lost, and they do all they can to preserve and to extend the institutions that embody social order. Supervisors are so in tune with the established institutions and ways of behaving within those institutions, that they have a hard time understanding those who might wish to abandon or radically change them.”
Now type theory may explain why he’s opposed to the emerging church, but it doesn’t explain his general unpleasant and disrespectful attitude: that can come with any type!
An SJ is best at working within established institutions and maintaining them. An N is the leader you want to effectively create change, and in a church, probably an NFJ. Check out the pages for idealists. http://keirsey.com/personality/nf.html
Of course a church or any institution needs every type doing the work that suits and interests them to truly thrive.
Joani B.
i want my 9 minutes back.
Listening to men like these, I am stand before God, amazed that He has so much patience, waiting for everyone to come to repentance.
This guy might have something to say if he didn’t so balantly go against his own said wisdom of not using worldly or fleshy methods – Doesn’t he know what Mat. 5:22 says about saying “You fool” and being liable to the hell of fire. I have my criticisms of the Emerging church, but calling it names only serves the Enemy of our souls. This man has trouble with beat music but no trouble with being “quarrelsome” (1 Timothy 2:8, 3:3) or speaking without grace (Col 4:6 “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.”). This man has a lot of salt but not enough grace.
Couldn’t make it all the way through the video, too gross. I’m an over 49 year old in a church of amazing younger people whose lives, grace, wisdom and profound desire to learn to follow Christ have blessed and taught me much in the last few years. Wisdom and love are not bound by age! Paying attention, trying to practice Scripture (like Jesus, not the Pharisees), and walk with humility draws people….any age can be foolish and proud….Mark 10:16…Jesus said you have to receive the kingdom like a little child….doesn’t look like ageism there! Stereotyping anyone or any movement is a bad idea!
I actually watched his second video- a very pedantic and uncritical recitation of a of his 2 or 3 points from the first video. None of which, mind you, held very compelling water for me. I think his main point (other than saying “stupidity” and “youngsters” in repetition with a sneering contempt) actually weakens his own argument; denying (or excluding) the move of the Holy Spirit and the incarnational (read as historical and contextual) Church does nothing to explain the “vanguards” of whatever mainline denomination he is trying to explain as “gospel”. Those things are absolutely important; the “church” he is defending came from exactly those things, and they came as a result of the nexus of the Gospel intersecting culture. We should never expect a Church to look exactly the same in Osh Kosh as it does in Kandahar; but, we should expect to see Christ and the Holy Spirit at work, growing the kingdom of God, with the fruits of the spirit abounding. I can understand his reticence to the “worship wars” that have sorrowfully divided churches over musical taste and theological depth (or lack thereof), but I think those have more to do with an underdeveloped theology of worshiping God rather than Fender guitars and praise songs. Plus, Id’ refer him to some classic examples in history of the very same thing regarding the inclusion of the organ or hymns (Jesus didn’t play a pipe organ- FYI.)
Hey Letter, meet Spirit. You guys should be friends…
I only made it two minutes and I went back to playing World of Warcraft for the second one. It sort of sounded like,
“blah blah blah…young people suck…blah blah blah…I know more than you…blah blah blah…change is bad.”
[...] with labels. You can read some of my thoughts about that in an earlier post entitled, ‘those stupid emerging church fools.’ It’s amazing how that word ‘emerging’ and ‘emergent’ is one [...]